#043 Kelly Dent: Changing Systems & Challenging Narratives
Episode Description
In this episode I chat with Kelly Dent. Kelly is the Global Director of External Engagement at World Animal Protection and is a leader, influencer, campaigner, advocate, and strategist for social change with 25 years’ experience working at the forefront of global development. Her focus at the moment is on working to end the wildlife trade, but she's worn many different hats throughout her career, including as a speaker at the UN Climate Talks and an Aid Worker in Gaza.
Join Kelly and I as we discuss:
Leading work that goes beyond a “career”
Collective action towards big goals
The importance of listening to and building connection with diverse voices as a changemaking leader
Leading people from values, strengths, and alignment towards a mission
Taking a holistic approach to work and life as a leader
Challenging dominant narratives and changing systems for meaningful change and impact
You can find Kelly on LinkedIn or Twitter and World Animal Protection at https://www.worldanimalprotection.org.au/
Transcript
Kate McCready: 1:04
So my guest today is Kelly Dent. Kelly is the global director of external engagement at World Animal Protection and is a leader, influencer, campaigner advocate and strategist for social change with 25 years experience working at the forefront of global development. Kelly has. Extensive experience in high-risk situations, conflict zones and achieving social change at scale. She's also driven policy change and positive impacts for affected communities around the world, such as Sri Lanka, Indonesia, Bangladesh, Hong Kong, and the Netherlands. She has a master's in climate change has conducted research and authored work on women and agriculture, women in supply chains and on corporate codes of conduct. Her passion though, doesn't stop with her advocacy career. She's also a yoga teacher, watercolor artist and pilgrimage lover, even having conquered the 800 kilometer Camino Frances pilgrimage. Her focus at the moment is on working to end the wildlife trade, but she's worn many different hats throughout her career, including as a speaker at the UN climate talks and as an aid worker in Gaza. Welcome to the podcast.
Kelly Dent: 2:16
Thanks, Kate. Thanks for having me.
Kate McCready: 2:18
You're so welcome. That is a pretty impressive bio that you've got.
Kelly Dent: 2:24
Well, thank you. And yeah, it's always interesting to hear it's being, being read back to you, I guess. I've been very lucky that you know, I've had a career that's had, you know, incredibly varied experiences. Taken me all over the world, enabled me to you know, meet so many like amazing brave people. People who live and working countries that have, have less freedoms than what we do and have far more at stake. Right. Stand up and try to make a better world for themselves and their communities and also for their families. So I do feel really, really lucky to have had or to have had, and to have the career that I've had. And I guess it's not really a career either. It's for me, it's, it's, it's a way of, of living in being it's much more than saying, well, you know, this is my work and this is everything else. I very very much try to integrate, you know, everything into my values and beliefs, I guess.
Kate McCready: 3:22
Yeah. Yeah. And was that always the way for you or is that something that developed over time?
Kelly Dent: 3:28
I think bit of both. I mean I think I've always been very interested in the world around me and in, you know, how you as an individual can make a difference and how you can contribute to change. A, stories when I was about nine, it was when Gough Whitlam was sacked. And I remember sitting around the kitchen table in the morning and that's when, you know, people used to all eat breakfast together. And I remember hearing my father saying, you know Gough Whitlam's been sacked. That's the end of free education you. And I started crying because I thought it meant at nine, but I couldn't go to school anymore. And I was one of those kids that I loved learning and I loved you know, being around my friends and my peers. So for me, the prospect of no having no more school, which is of course is not what my father said at all. That's how my nine year old sort of Brian interpreted it was, was you know, to me, it was very depressing. And I guess that was the first time I really realised. That things that happen around you can make a profound difference to your life and the lives of others, and also who you are. Although of course, I didn't articulate it in that way when I was nine, but I do have a very clear memory of being very, very upset by this event that had happened, this significant event that was obviously quite big for my parents. But also. Had an impact on me, which was me thinking I wasn't going to be able to go to school.
Kate McCready: 4:59
Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. So I'd love for you to just share a little bit with me and the audience about the work that you're doing right now. Where is all of this amazing experience led you to in, in what you're doing.
Kelly Dent: 5:12
Yeah. So no I've had from, from that kind of, I guess, very formative experience when I was younger. I guess had a number of, of, of different experiences that I was either directly involved in or was aware of and the, the work that I'm doing now with World Animal Protection, I've been here for about, with what animal protection for a couple of years coming from the aid and development sector before that, and from about a decade and a half in that sector. With World Animal Protection, my kind of key roles are really around engaging corporations to try and change their policies and practices, particularly within their supply chains in the way they do business in a way that respects animals and, and stops their exploitation, the cruelty and the suffering, and also political engagement and engagement with you know, other institutional bodies such as the UN, such as the World Health Organization, again, with the same aims to have policies and laws in place that, that respect animals that stop their exploitation and you know, lead to an end in, in the suffering and cruelty. Very specifically, one of the things that we've been working on since COVID-19 is a ban on the trade in wildlife. And that's for several reasons. The first is because wild animals belong in the wild, they don't belong in markets. They don't belong in people's homes. They don't belong to be farmed animals for people to be able to take selfies with. They actually belong in the wild. It's also really important though. Not only, because they have intrinsic value and need to stay in the wild. It's the exploitation of animals through this wildlife trade where we're seeing the zoonotic transmission of disease, which means from animals to humans. And an example of that is COVID-19. But there have been other examples throughout history rabies, ebola, SARS, I mean, just, to name, a couple this many. You know, it's not an ideological position to say, we need to end the trade in wild animals. It's actually critical for the survival of us, of animals and, and of our planet. And there's just a real, you know, interconnectedness there. And in one of the bodies that we've been targeting to try and in the trade in wildlife, I mean, you've got to take many approaches, right? There's no one route to change. So we've been taking many different exploring many different avenues. But one that we've been working on is, is the G 20, because they are, you know, the most powerful nations in the world. They can send a really important signal. Of what needs to happen for change. And if there is the political will there, they can often act quicker than kind of then than some of the UN processes, which are incredibly important, but involve like, you know, 190 plus countries close to 200 countries. And those systems and processes. While they're inclusive can, can take time. So that's kind of one of the things that I'm, that I'm working on now, but, you know, obviously informed by decades of working, you know, across a range of different areas. And also the times around me, as well as I was kind of you know, doing this work, but also as we move through the decade.
Kate McCready: 8:53
Yeah. Yeah. That's so interesting. And I love what you talk about of about, you know, that taking animals out of their, their habitats. You know, it's not just a thing about, oh, it's not good for them from that ideological perspective, but really I think. When we look at it across the world in all kinds of different situations, anytime where we remove animals from their natural habitat, we cause disasters like you just look at cane toads in Australia and things like that. And it's it's never good when we do that, is it?
Kelly Dent: 9:26
No, not at all and any so when we remove animals, but also when we destroy the habitat of the animal, Which no way we're doing, we're seeing happen more and more through climate change, for example, through land clearing, which is, you know, we see a huge amount of land clearing for feed for livestock and for livestock raising for industrialized farming. And, again, there's such an inequity in that because it's only the more wealthy countries who are able to access animals the majority of the time is as a form of protein. Less developed countries are using more plant based proteins. And as such are eating very small amounts of, of animals and as such have a much smaller impact on our planet. And I can guess that the kind of loss of habitat and the loss of biodiversity and the loss of wild animals, which is I think, where we started with the question.
Kate McCready: 10:30
So tell me as a leader in this space, what are the things that are key in terms of whether it's your skill sets or your mindset or whatever it might be, but what are the key things that enable you to do this work successfully?
Kelly Dent: 10:46
Yeah, it's a really good question. And one that I think, think about quite a bit, actually. I mean, I think for me, it's around very clearly not understanding why I do what I do and the reason that I do what I do, which might be very different for the reasons somebody else does what they do. And it doesn't matter. But the reason that that I do what I do is because I want to leave the world like a fairer place. A more equitable place. And I also want to leave the world a more compassionate place. And I mean compassion, not as a passive statement, but I mean, compassion, as in compassionate, towards yourself, compassionate towards others, compassionate towards our environment, compassion towards animals. And most of my life's work is around trying to contribute to or striving to make the world a better, a better place for not only people that are in it now. But animals are in it and our environments, our forests, our rivers, but for the people that come after me. So for the generations that are, that are younger than me in. In terms of how kind of I to do that, I think that there's a few things I want to say, and they sometimes can maybe some contradictory, but, but hopefully I can explain or you can help me unpack them in a way that that's not contradictory.
Kate McCready: 12:22
Sure I'd love to.
Kelly Dent: 12:25
I like having these tussles right in my head around, you know, contradicting things as well or concepts and just really picking them apart. But I think, you know, and this is where I think there can sometimes be a bit of a contradiction. I think change happens when we change systems, but people can change systems as individuals, as groups. As communities as a society. So you don't have to go out and say, right today, I'm going to change the environment system today I'm going to change the system that props up climate change that allows climate change to happen. Although ultimately you do need systems change in my opinion, to bring about change, but the way you go about doing that can be really individual or really different, depending on either the work you're doing or that the kind of activism you're doing in your life, if you're not able to be an activist in your work. Although I would kind of argue that everyone has some capacity to be an activist, no matter what they're doing, whether it's, whether it's in the work place or privately, if that's what they want to do. So I also think that it's about that change is also about challenging power. And the dominant narratives that exist within, within our society. And this can take time because this is about changing mindsets and it's about changing values and behaviors. And we all know that that is possible, but it can take time. And then the last component I want to talk about is just the real and something that's really run through so much of my life. And my work is this whole notion of solidarity. So solidarity with those who are affected the most. So it's not you going out there doing things to people or for people it's actually about going out there with others. And listening to others' voices, particularly those who are the most effective. So you know, by that, I mean, if you're talking about you know, workers working in sweat shops you know, across Asia, if you're talking about communities who are, you know, being kicked off their land, often at gunpoint for their land to be cleared for large scale industrialized farming. It's about working in solidarity with people who are affected to give them agency to bring about the changes that they want and need to have in their lives for themselves and their communities. And this can be really interesting and lead to some really interesting ethical discussions and debates and dilemmas, because if, for example, that, you know a path, that a group workers are going to take, if it leads to them, losing their jobs. For example, a question of dignity of risk there in that people have a right to choose their path. Even if there are consequences to that path, that might be worse than what's happening to them. Now you would hope that's not gonna be the case. But it can be right? Things, things can happen, but it's like if people are empowered to make these decisions for themselves or their families or their communities, then theyare their decisions to make. And I see, know my job as supporting those decisions. Now it also means that you might take on different roles. so. If it's a situation it's quite dangerous, for people on the ground and you're in a relatively safe position, you might be the one that takes one course of action. So raises an issue with government or challenges, a company on something. Whereas, you know, the workers may choose or the people on the ground where, they are may choose to take, you know, certainly you want to have different roles in the change, but, but I do feel. You know, quite strongly about the need to actually act in support and in solidarity with people and communities to, to bring about the change. And, and the same goes when we're talking about our natural world and our, and our animals. I mean, animals that have the same ability to articulate. However, we know through science and et cetera. What, what is you know, good for species survival for species to thrive for the needs to be met for animals to lead a good life. And that's what we should be driven by…
Kate McCready: 17:08
Okay. So you, you just talked about then about one of the things being challenging power and dominant narratives. That's obviously something that's incredibly important to leadership in kind of all different facets. You know, whether it's from advocacy or just being in a normal office or, you know, challenging paradigms of the society we live in. If you were to talk a bit about what you think is really important and helpful in how we can actually go about challenging power dominant narratives from what you've learnt from your experience.
Kelly Dent: 17:42
Yeah. Thanks. It's a really good question and challenging power and dominant narratives. can often seem, you know, some people are really drawn to it and other people can be quite wary about it. It doesn't have to be going out there on the streets, although that is a very important you know, offline form of action, a really important expression of, of democracy and civil society. But there are many things that people can do around challenging power and challenging the dominant narrative. And it's of course, It is possible to do. And what, what it's often about. If, if I take, for example, the climate movement, it's around getting the narrative more in the mainstream, and then what you start to see is governments or corporations or both start to act and react to what is out there in the public to the way people are choosing to consume their energy, for example. To what happens when not so much in Australia, but in other countries, when, when our politicians don't actually take notice of the public mood around needing to act on climate change. And then what you start to see is either larger or smaller shifts. Sometimes they can be small and they can be quite incremental. Incremental is in fact fine, if it's moving towards the change that you want to see. Incremental, if it's not really doing much except masking what needs to be done well, it's often called greenwashing or something like that is, is not useful. I think the other thing that's important to look at is the whole issue of distributed campaigning. So it isn't about like one organization or one group taking leadership. It's about collective acknowledgement of the goal that you're trying to move towards, and then everybody doing what they can to move towards that goal. And again, using the, the climate change example which is one I've been involved in the climate movement for a long time. And I guess we've known climate change is an issue for, for several decades. It's probably only been in the last decade and a half that's seen real momentum, especially in other places in the world around making the changes or some of the changes that are needed. But then you also look at how we've seen people like Greta Turnberg for example, spark the climate strikes and bring a whole new generation into the argument, into the debate, into the change that needs to happen. And this is really, really positive. The more people and the more diversity that can be involved climate change, protecting the environment, animal welfare, whatever it is, the better. And it doesn't have to be done in a particular way, which we've seen a lot of these distributed tight campaigning and movements. I mentioned before, Me Too, Black Lives Matter is another example. Extinction rebellion is another example. But I think once you start to see the issue enter into the main stream. Then what you can see is that the narrative starts to change. And there can be also big things that change narratives. So the example of the Australian Bush fires in the 2019 2020 bushfire season, which was, you know, one of the most horrendous we had experienced this really, really I think, put climate change back in the forefront of Australian's minds. Not only was it incredibly devastating to people and to their livelihoods, their properties, et cetera. It was also one of the first times where we were saying the sheer scale of the impact on animals was really prevalent as well. And I think it was a real like aha moment for, for many, many people around. It's, it's not just one thing. The systems are all interconnected and to change, we have to change systems and to change systems means we have to you know, really challenge, power and, and make it and make that, that power change. And, and of course there are many ways you can challenge power. I mean you know, Gandhi and others have talked about this kind of civil disobedience and non-violent movements, but there are other ways as well. So you can take individual action or you can take more collective action and you can still contribute to changing power, to changing that narrative. I mean, not, not wanting to trivialize this at all. Making a conscious effort to reduce plastic in your life. That actually has impact because all of us do that. Then that means that companies are just not going to manufacture as much plastic. Now, of course, there's other things that need to happen. So I'm not saying this is all it needs to happen, but this in itself can be quite a significant act. If this is what you are comfortable to do in terms of the change. If you don't want to be one of the people sort of on the streets or on the barricades or whatever, you know, sort of really pushing or in the corridors of power, sort of advocating for change.
Kate McCready: 23:10
Yeah. I love that. You say that it's kind of like we all have our different ways that we can advocate for change and you know, there's not necessarily one way that's better or more right. Or than the other, but you know, if everybody's doing their a little bit in different ways that adds up, doesn't it?
Kelly Dent: 23:25
Absolutely. Yeah. Now in terms of challenging sort of dominant narratives, we've seen that there has been some really important examples to go from a position of where cigarette smoking was very, very accepted and that the tobacco companies had this believed that there was no evidence that smoking was bad for your health to a situation now, at least in Australia and in many other countries, it's very recognised that the damage that smoking can do and the role of tobacco in terms of the health crisis that was brought about by smoking. And then I guess another example where you've seen sort of dominant narrative change is in the, the whole sort of gay rights and gay marriage area now that was certainly a big fight for many in the community and their supporters in, in the lead up to the referendum here in Australia, which was not as it should have been now, however, decades worth of work. A lot of very, very hard work, a lot of very difficult work, but eventually we have seen. There's a long way to go, but we have seen a change in that dominant narrative. So there are, there are other examples as well. There are examples where it can, and it does happen but you know, it, it takes time and, you know, sometimes it's one step forward and two steps back. I think, if you're still moving forward, Well, probably it should be that way around, right. Two steps forward. One step back. If you still moving forward then, you know, you're still moving towards change and then you can also see sometimes you'll see major events that you can actually use to really propel change. And I, and I believe that that COVID-19 is also one of those events as well. I mean who would have thought how much stock people were putting in science a little while ago. Now it's science, at least in Australia, that's determining a lot of things and maybe to a lesser extent, but it's still definitely out there that people are questioning our relationship with the natural world. And they're how that broken relationship is what has contributed to diseases like COVID-19 and other ones that, that we spoke about before as well.
Kate McCready: 25:52
Yeah, it's so true. And I think it's a conversation that seems to be coming up a lot at the moment, particularly as well in relation to, you know, our First Nations people and how, you know, they, they still hold that connection and we've got so much to learn from them. Yet, we just, haven't been listening for a long time and, you know, we've got the knowledge and the wisdom right there, but not really paying attention to it in the way that we could be.
Kelly Dent: 26:17
Yeah, absolutely. That's why, you know, that, that real diversity in terms of elevating voices that have things to say that are impacted that know is really important. I mean, the ancient wisdom from our indigenous communities is just so important to be not only to be heard and to be respected, but also to be implemented. I I was up in, um Darwin and I that in Alice Springs and then Darwin. But when I was in Darwin, I saw for the first time, the, the way a cool burn is done in the off season. So it's where it's where the native grasses or the indigenous grasses where they are burnt because they don't have a hot fire and they just allowed to burn. And what it does is that brings your natural sort of fire break. So that you'll reduce this fuel load for the summer when it's traditionally more or the hot season where it's traditionally bush fires are more likely to happen. And I was hearing about where the grasses are, not the indigenous grasses that sometimes they burn hotter. So you can't do a cool burn on them because then you risk a fire, even if it's a backburn getting away. So there's just this, you know, there's just so much, right. There's so much knowledge out there that yeah. We just need to reconnect with, right. These ancient wisdom and knowledge.
Kate McCready: 27:56
Yeah, I love what you said about elevating diverse voices. And you've kind of already touched on this a bit in what you've said already about how, you know, bringing the voices of say the people that we're trying to work with around change or trying to positively impact through, through change. As a leader, who's experienced so many different scenarios where I'm sure elevating diverse voices has been important, but I'm also sure not always easy. How, how have you gone about that? What do you think other people in maybe different types of leadership situations could learn from the experience that you've had in things like international development on elevating diverse voices?
Kelly Dent: 28:37
Yeah. I mean the elevating diverse voices, solidarity working with communities, which is pretty much just good old fashioned community development or some of those principles is not necessarily the same thing, but the principles are similar. It's really important work, but it's really hard work and it's work that takes a lot of patience. It's about building relationships of trust. It's also about being willing to not just sweep into a community and sweep back out again. I can't tell you the number of hours and days and months that I would have sat on really hard concrete floors in Indonesia, talking for hours and hours with workers. Basically so that even though I may have already worked out quite quickly, what was going on, or I might not have, I might've got it wrong. But it's about giving people, the agency and the voice to express themselves the same in in, in the Pacific, sitting around. Like waiting sometimes for a long time to meet with a community, to then talk to them about the impacts of climate change, but also being willing to get out there. Not to sit in a meeting room, in a hotel room, on the end of a computer. Although that's kind of all we can do right at the moment. But really get out there and, and see for yourself and experience it. And for me, they've been some of the most powerful moments. Like when I have been in, for example, Kiribas. Highest point on the main island is two meters and I got taken to a hospital. It was a maternity hospital, right on the edge of the water where, when the sea level rose, when there was a big storm surge, women who were giving birth were evacuated while they were giving birth to a stadium, because it was on a higher point and therefore safer. And I saw the hospital and I saw the stadium and I heard the stories of how, you know, there was just very flimsy, like curtain petitions put up between women who, who were giving birth. I mean, these, these are powerful stories. When you're in a industrial estate and you've been hearing about the you know, difficulties that, that workers have organizing. You see you know, people who are watching what workers are doing, who don't have good intentions and, and you can understand where then some of that violence comes from towards people who are standing up to vested interests and then the resistance that they face. And then another example, I think that really Springs to my mind is, and I didn't go to Cambodia. I met the Cambodian farmers in Australia, but some of my team did go to Cambodia and met with farmers who were kicked off their land. Some at gunpoint. When corporations wanted to grow crops there for, for money. And the farmers were put in a way worse situation. One of the things that we supported was bringing them to Australia, because they actually wanted to talk both to the OECD contact point that's within, within government. But they also wanted to talk to investors and government and banks who were financing some of the companies who were engaging in these practices. And to see these really brave men and women who had never left their country. Come to Australia on behalf of their communities and meet government officials with investors, with executives of banks. But more than that, tell their harrowing stories over and over and over again. I mean, I just can't imagine what it would be like to have to relive the worst moments of your life over and over again, so that you can draw attention to your plight. I mean, they're the sorts of things. They take time. It takes a long time. You have to build the connection with the community, build the connection with those they trust. Listen, it's deeply listening. What it is that people actually. Want in terms of bringing about the change and then brainstorming together, what is our strategy for change? What can you do? What can we do? But it isn't about going in and doing a needs analysis and saying, this is what you need, and I'm going to do this for you.
Kate McCready: 33:30
Yeah.
Kelly Dent: 33:31
It's just not that.
Kate McCready: 33:33
Yeah, I love that. Some of my past history was working in human centered design and co-design and yeah, very much passionate about these, these kinds of things about, you know, letting people be part of the design of the solutions and really, really part of the design rather than just kind of giving lip service to that. So important.
Kelly Dent: 33:54
Yeah. And sometimes the solutions can just be not what you expect. Right? And it's, it's so empowering and liberating when, when you see that happen. So for people, but also for yourself, it's like when I have to have all the answers, we can just be part of a process that's coming up with some of those solutions.
Kate McCready: 34:16
Yeah. Yeah. I've just been reading or just finished a fabulous book called Invisible Women. I'm not sure if you've read it or not.
Kelly Dent: 34:24
No, I haven't. But it sounds like something I'd love.
Kate McCready: 34:27
Yeah. And it's all about kind of the data gap around women in the world, but something that really struck me in that book was stories of solutions in developing nations being created by people who never spoke to the women. And so things like having more eco-friendly stoves, but they didn't design them with the women in mind and they didn't use them because they didn't work as well. It meant that had to be in the kitchen for longer and things like that. So they didn't get taken up. So the whole initiatives were, were useless. And it just goes to show it's not just having the voices in the room, but having the right voices in the room.
Kelly Dent: 35:03
Absolutely. You know, the more diverse those voices are, the better, the more different voices and different opinions you have, regardless of what that diversity is made up off, that the more you have the better. I always say to my team, it's, it's really good to have, you know, robust discussion and debate and to have different opinions. And I totally don't expect everyone to agree with each other. And in fact, I don't want that because you don't get good outcomes, but you do have to find art way to agree on the goal. Otherwise you don't get anywhere. Right? But having those different voices is just so important. What you were just talking about with invisible women, the book, I haven't read that one, but I also know so many stories where. Again, just to take the female example. Where women haven't been consulted and haven't taken up, you know, or situations have been made worse. So it's just so, so critical.
Kate McCready: 36:03
Yeah. So taking it back from this kind of international development lens and back to you and your team. How is this relevant? What we've just been talking about in terms of how you lead people within your organization and how you've worked with them to get better outcomes for maybe whether it's culture or, you know, engagement or whatever's going on in the organization.
Kelly Dent: 36:32
Yeah. So, I mean, I think again, leading people is you know, both, a privilege and can also be challenging as well. So I try to work with people around and we've also within our organization, we do a lot of work around values. So what are you values and what are the organization's values and how can you live those those values in the work that you do. And I think that's not unusual in kind of for purpose organizations. And I think people are quite aware of that, that framework. So I think it's about sort of getting people to work to the organizations and their values, but also being willing to have discussions when that might not be quite happening and not in a way that's blameful of people. Cause I like to assume that people are usually trying to do the best that they can. But what practical steps can you put in place to further develop the person, the team. I also think that when you've got a strategic plan and we've just embarked on a, on a new strategic plan, it's really important to bring people along and to get alignment. So to talk about if this is where we want to go, or if this is where you want to go what, this is the end point, what do you need to get there? One of my favorite sayings is catch people doing the right thing you know, rather than, than the wrong thing. So it's a bit of a mantra of mine. I really try and practice that because it's pretty easy to know when someone's doing something wrong. Right? And that's what we tend to focus on. Not, not all the time, but it's also about catching people doing the right thing. Playing to people's strengths, I think is really important as well. I'm, I'm very influenced by Brene Brown's work on, on vulnerability and empathy. And vulnerability is something I struggled with showing in my early days. And in fact, probably until quite recently, it's something I've had to work on. But I'm a big convert to, you know, to that, that power of vulnerability and to showing people that you are also vulnerable that, that there is no in vulnerability that it's so important in terms of that, that human connection. And, and in terms of. Just, just progressing. Empathy as well. I know, I know there's a lot of debate around the term empathy at the moment. I still think, you know, empathy and emotional intelligence are incredibly important in, in the work that we do. And I also think things like being a good role model as well, and a good mentor. Naturally, I'm more of a facilitative type person and prefer. A bit more of a facilitation or kind of coaching mentor approach, but it's also knowing when that's not the right approach. So knowing what approach is the best to take? I also think it's about encouraging people just to be really good people and to pursue their passions. Right? And it isn't always all about the paid work I'm using kind of quotation marks. Cause again, if you're working in the types of areas that myself and my teams work in, a lot of our, what we do, we are getting paid for, but it's also part of our life. You know, we're often involved in other things outside of work. I also really try and like role model the importance of just, I think having a really holistic approach to life, I'm a really big fan of pausing and reflecting. So, you know, action reflection that cycle. And pausing so that you're not just running. I just used to have such boundless energy and I'd just run from one thing to the other. I'll be like quick, quick, quick, quick, quick. The change has got to happen. It's got to happen now. And even if it means I'm not getting enough sleep. And even if it means I'm not bringing people along with me, or I'm being cranky with people around me or whatever. And then I like just took a really big breath, you know, about probably a bit over a decade ago and went, you know what? This is not sustainable. You know, what, if I'm not around for a couple of weeks, in most cases, nothing's going to change that much or nothing that others can't manage or handle. So it's about empowering other people as well. Not about saying, you know, nothing can happen unless it's me, that's doing it. So one of the things that I've just done, I'm so lucky I got this in before lockdown. So well before the latest COVID cases emerged in Sydney, I was lucky enough because I hadn't been able to travel this year and I do travel a lot. Usually I got to walk the Larapinta trail out of Alice Springs in the ancient landscapes there. And I just can't tell you how rejuvinating at ease to be connected to that ancient land. I had no internet. I had no phone. I basically said to my team, you are empowered to make decisions. I will back you up. And if you're really in trouble, speak to this person, senior management. But do know that I won't see anything from you because I have no signal. And I think this is not only really, I mean, this is an example, right? But it's, it's not only really important for yourself to be able to take those breaks, to be able to rejuvenate, to be able to reflect. But it's also really important to show others that it can be done and that you support this. And I so often see mixed messages and signals like, no, no, go on holidays. You need to have a break, but you know, can you just do this before you go? And you know, it's not feasible for the person to do it. So I think those sorts of things are really important as well.
Kate McCready: 42:10
Yeah. So you said it was about 10 years ago you had this realization. I have a lot of clients who are in this position where they, they recognize they're on the hamster wheel and they're finding it so hard to get off. And that's, you know, part of the work that I do with them a lot of the time and helping them know how they can lead, but still create that, that space around them. But how did you do that? And what. What was it that enabled you to kind of really make that change at that point? Because it's not an easy thing to do. And you know, everything around us is often saying, like you said, oh, do it, but no, don't really do it.
Kelly Dent: 42:45
Yeah. I'll look at that. It's such a good question. And I'm sure that others you've spoken to might have told you something similar. I'm interested to hear what you think. The big moment, I mean, you have lots of small moments, right? Where you, you know this, but, but then doing it is different. The big moment came for me when we had yet another major restructure at Oxfam. And I was like, I've been through so many restructures. We all this time was fairly major. I didn't know if I was going to have a job or not. We all had excessive amounts of annual leave, which understandably we were being asked to take. And a lot of people were saying, well, I can't do this. What about this work? What about this project? What about these communities? All of which were perfectly understandable, reasonable, valid things to be saying. But I just thought to myself, you know, I've been through so many different restructures in my life. I've got a lot of holidays. I've been wanting to make some changes to the way I approach things for a while. I'm actually going to do exactly what I've been asked. I was one of these people who had excess amounts of leave excesses amounts of time off in lieu of overtime. What, what you would know is called toil. And I just went, you know what, I'm just going to take it. And I'd been practicing yoga. For a long time. It had helped me when I was living in working in Sri Lanka. I lived there during the civil war. Yoga really helped ground me. But I wanted to take my practice to the next level. So I used all of my saved up leave to do a yoga teacher training course. It was incredibly transformative. And I didn't know if I was going to teach at the end of this period, what I did know was that I wanted to set opportunity, again, stop to reflect, to integrate, to take my practice to the next level. And as that turned out, I did end up teaching. I did some, some casual classes. I actually stayed at Oxfam, so I didn't lose my job in this restructure. But I also let go of that as well. And I said, you know what? It is not going to be the end of the world. If I lose my job. I'm in a situation where I'll be okay. I have other skills experiences, I will get something. So I started to see this all as an opportunity, not as this obstacle or as this horrible thing that had been imposed on me. It was like, Nope, I have a choice in this. And these are the choices that I'm going to exercise. And it was so, and I think you always have choice, right? Even in the worst situation. I'm not saying this was anywhere near the worst situation. So when the restructure is over, there was this obviously a lot of healing that needs to happen in that in organizations, in that space. And again, it was like, I can't fix everything. What I can do is work with the people that are on my team to help build them back up again. I can do the best work possible. And I can also contribute what I've learned from my yoga teacher training. So I did classes at Oxfam at lunchtime for about a year, and we had other people who did a lunch club. And then we got into people that did massages. We did a whole lot of self-care in our small Sydney based office. I also did some cover classes with yoga. I didn't ever have a regular teaching practice. Cause at that stage I was traveling a lot. So I couldn't really commit to being in one place every, every week. But I did do workshops. I did some covers and I did some teaching at Oxfam for about a year or a bit longer. And so. Yeah, I think that was the kind of moment where everything just crystallized and I just went. Everything I've been thinking about everything that I know I'm just going to put it all into practice and yeah, it was really transformational.
Kate McCready: 46:44
Yeah, I love that. A few things that I took away from what you just said then is partially there was a letting go. And I think, you know, you talk, you look at so many spiritual traditions and letting go with such a big part of them. And then you talked about this focusing what you could do and, and also exercising the choice that you did have. And I, I really love that because I think sometimes we think we don't have a lot of choice, but we actually do have choice. We're just sometimes afraid to make the choices that we know we need to make. And so I love that you brought all of those things up.
Kelly Dent: 47:18
Yes. We resist the choices too righ? Yeah. It takes a lot of work to just eventually go, you know what? I'm just not going to resist anymore.
Kate McCready: 47:27
Yeah, yeah. Coming towards the end of our time together. So I want to make sure that I do ask you the all important question that I ask my guests is that how do you show up as a leading being in life work and your organisation.
Kelly Dent: 47:45
Eh, it's such a good question. I've had a bit of a think about it and I, I think it's about, I think we've talked a bit about that too throughout the discussion, but I also think it's about showing up as a person with, you know, your strengths, your vulnerabilities. I think it's also about really being just being sure to look after the, kind of the physical, the spiritual, the mental, and the emotional social side of who we are and also encouraging others to do the same. It goes back to when I spoke at the beginning about compassion, compassion towards yourself, towards others, you know, towards animals, towards our world. I think, you know, it's just showing up sort of as whole, as you can be and being willing to admit, you know, I guess your vulnerabilities and being willing to learn a lot from your mistakes. And that's also something that's easy to say and often harder to do, but I think that if you can go actually some of the best learnings happen when things maybe haven't been the best situation. Or where haven't acted as well as you could of. As long as you can recognize that these, these can be really powerful learnings, as well as when things go wrong. Also, I think we should celebrate success. I'm a really big one in my team for like, if people have gone on holidays, I want to see some holiday snaps. I don't want to see 200 of them. I'd like to see two or three. If something's gone well, Actually going, let's not just race onto the next thing and go, okay, we've done that. Right. What's next? It's like, let's pause and let's go, wow, look what we've just achieved. Even if we still have all these other things to achieve. It's when you don't stop and recognize what you've achieved, that I think leads to disempowerment. It can lead to, you know, other forms of disengagement, those sorts of things. And I encourage people even within the workplace as much as possible to follow their passions. I mean, some of my team at the moment are really excited about the work the organization is doing around diversity and inclusion. I'm like, yep. Go for it. And tell me what you want me to do to support you. And some of them have come back with a bit of a list of what they want me to do, and I'm like, okay, that's great. Yep. I'll do that because you know, we all want to support more diversity and inclusion. So yeah, giving people space, but also you know, a clear understanding of, of the goals that we're trying to achieve and the values by which way I'm going to achieve them is, is how I would show up. I also can't sort of overestimate the importance of listening. Just listening to people can be so powerful, especially people who are not used to being heard can be so powerful and people often have the solutions to their issues or to their challenges. Yeah. If you just ask a couple of questions, just listen, maybe, maybe share a story about your own experience if that's appropriate or some ideas. But I think listening's really important as well. And, you know, valuing that everybody has something to bring to the table. You know, can be, their experience can be from their experience from life, their experience from work. And those experiences make us richer.
Kate McCready: 51:24
Yeah, I love that. And I think, you know, it's something about what you said there too, but it very beautifully ties into what you've just talked about in that, you know, if you, if you're going to kind of understand yourself better and, and learn about yourself and think about, you know, what went well and what didn't go well and how you can improve and how to use your strengths, you do have to do that reflective time that you, that you talked about earlier. And I suppose just to wrap up, I'd love to hear How do you reflect? What's the process that you personally take to make sure that you're doing that, regularly? Yeah. So
Kelly Dent: 51:56
I do a couple of things. I love to walk. It connects me to nature. It allows me to spend time with, with close friends, but it also enables me. So I've done a lot of really long walks. I did the coastal walk from Palm beach and city to Oxford. While we weren't able to travel in 2020. As you said in your introduction. I've also walked the Camino, which is an ancient pilgrimage from St. John Peter Paul in France to over the Pyrenees to Santiago de Compostela. So for me, it's around taking myself. It's two things: it's taking myself away from the work that I'm doing and allowing myself to connect with nature and be really physically exhausted and where you're just walking. And all you have to do is eat, sleep, maybe wash your clothes and walk. That's one thing. And so I think it's good to take time out to do that. However, and here's where I guess it could be a little bit contradictory as well. I also really think it's important to bring into your everyday life, what you learn while you are at a retreat, walking, on a pilgrimage on your yoga mat, because I think so often there's a disconnect. It's like, oh, so I'm an activist and this is what I do. And then I do these other things over there. It's like, no, it's like, what can I do to look after myself and others and be the best person possible so that I will contribute to changing the world. And this is about integrating the things you learn. While you're doing this work, but also when you're reflecting and it's like, you need those periods of reflection, but you need to also in my view, bring those things back into your life. So whenever I start to feel a disconnect, it's usually because I'm not integrating well enough, the different aspects of my life. And not integrating self care and what I know from my own spiritual development and growth into what I'm doing. And that's when I kind of give myself a pretty big talking to, and for example, last night, I just did two yoga classes back to back online because I I had a really big week, last week. I wanted to reset for this week and I was like, Yeah, just get on your mat and just try and use yoga practice to reset. Yeah. So far, it's worked.
Kate McCready: 54:35
I can't agree with you more. I think integrating it, you know, we are whole humans. We're not different pieces and it goes back to something you said right at the start of the interview, which is what you're doing, it's a way of living and being, and work it's not separate it's, it's absolutely part of everything we do. So yeah. Being able to integrate these different practices and whether they be reflective or contemplative or whatever. It's just so key to bringing those pieces together and kind of having them all sit together, harmoniously.
Kelly Dent: 55:09
Yeah. Yeah.
Kate McCready: 55:12
Well, thank you so much for spending the time with me today. It's been an absolute pleasure to learn a bit more about you and the work that you're doing and your amazing experience and how you've kind of brought that to life. So thank you so so much.
Kelly Dent: 55:26
Oh, thank you so much for the conversation it's been great.
Kate McCready: 55:30
You're welcome. And is there anything you want to share about the organization and how people can have a look at the work that you're doing in a bit more detail?
Kelly Dent: 55:39
Yeah, absolutely. So in terms of World Animal Protection it best just to find us on the internet www.worldanimalprotection.org. or just Google search world animal protection that'll give you a really good insight into a lot of the work that we're currently doing particularly towards keeping wild animals in the wild and towards you know, looking at ending that the systems of exploitation around farmed animals as well. Yeah, so that's, that's work and for me I tweet a lot to do with work I'm on Twitter. And then separately on Medium the blog site where there's some blogs around the trade it in wild animals. And then I'm also on LinkedIn all as Kelly Dent.
Kate McCready: 56:25
Fabulous. Well, definitely go and check out what Kelly's doing and what world animal protection are doing too. They're really doing some incredible work. And Kelly. Thank you, so much again.
Kelly Dent: 56:36
Thank you, Kate. Bye.