#050 Aaron McEwan: Reimagining Work Post Pandemic - What Leaders Need to Consider
We are all well aware of the fact our working lives have changed since we've moved on from the thick of the pandemic. But have our organisations and our leaders caught up? And are we really making the most of the new opportunities this 'now' of the future of work is presenting?
In this episode I chat to Aaron McEwan: top 100 HR Influencer, coaching psychologist, strategic advisor, innovation expert and self confessed tech geek. Aaron wears a number of professional hats, but his main one is VP of Research & Advisory at Gartner. And his recent work and research dives deep into how we need to reimagine a more human centred kind of organisation, with leaders to match, since all discovering there's more to life than work. And that working with a dog at your feet can't be matched by any kind of fancy cafeteria.
Join us as we discuss some of the trends, insights and implications of this new working world and some serious considerations leaders must make relating to people and employee experience. Unless they want their organisations to become the Blockbusters or Kodaks of tomorrow.
You can connect with Aaron on LinkedIn or check out Gartner's research on their Website.
Mentions
Other Life Podcast - Writing in the Age of Machine Intelligence
Work for Humans - The Great Resignation and the Future of Work Aaron McEwan
Transcript
Kate: 1:08
Hey folks. I'm your host, Kate McCready, integrative business leadership and human potential coach meets mindful strategist for humans, uplifting people and planet. Welcome to the Leading Beings podcast, a show about elevating and expanding your awareness, potential and leadership for meaningful impact conscious success and a work-life or business in flow. Join me and some incredible guests for inspiration, ideas, tips, strategies, and stories to help you grow and evolve yourself and your mission. So you can make your unique, positive difference in work and life from the inside out. Whether you're leading a team, a business, a community and organization, a cause, or simply yourself, tune in as we explore what it means to be and become a Leading Being. I'd also like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which I work and live the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin nation and pay my respects to their elders past, present and emerging. I'd also like to acknowledge that sovereignty has never been ceded and this wasn't always will be Aboriginal land. Hey Aaron, welcome to the Leading Beings podcast.
Aaron: 2:13
Thanks for Having me, it's my pleasure to be here.
Kate: 2:17
so very excited to have you on here. I saw you speak at, the This Now US event late last year, which was a bit of an amazing event actually. For the listeners, it was very experiential and, like the least conferencing conference I've ever been to. So I saw Aaron speak at that and, was really interested in the work that you're doing. Before we jump into that, I'd love you to just introduce yourself, tell the audience a little bit about you and what you do.
Aaron: 2:45
Yeah, sure. Well, my job, my, I guess my job title is I'm vice President of Research and Advisory for Gartner's HR practice. So that means that I, I spend pretty much every day either researching or more likely advising executives on all things related to future of work and the future of talent and a whole bunch of kind of broader HR issues. And I also specialize in a, in a couple of kind of, Niche areas within, within the Gartner business. So one is working with the board in C-Suite. So I spend a lot of time advising other executives on how to be effective at that level. And I head up a, a part of our advisory function, which looks at emerging trends, what we call our rapid response. So this is really picking up on the very earliest signs of disruptive trends that are likely to throw a spanner into the works, particularly for, for HR and talent leaders. So yeah, you know, that means that I'm, like, I'm currently really fascinated by playing around with chat G P T and all things kind of generative AI based, which is consuming my time. Outside of work I'm a, I'm a father of two kids, two young kids one of whom is autistic. So that comes with, you know, challenges, but also in incredible experiences. And it really grounds me in what Being human is and, and, and how important, you know, having diverse perspectives and, and giving everybody a voice. So there's a, a, a and I should mention, I also, one of my roles at Gartner is that I co-chair our employee resource group globally that's focused on people with disabilities caregivers neurodiversity and chronic illnesses. So again, I spend a lot of my time, I guess you know, championing the needs of people who don't get as much of a voice as, as I get sometimes with the privelage that I have.
Kate: 4:41
Yeah. Yeah, Yeah, Amazing. And like what brought you to this work?
Aaron: 4:48
Oh, it's a long story. When I, when I left school, I wanted to be a journalist. I was, you know, pretty keen to kind of change the world. I, I'd come from a, a long family history of social justice and unionism and all of that. In fact, my great-great-grandfather led the Eureka stockade. So there's a, a bit of that kind of revolutionary blood that that runs through the veins. And I was, I was lucky enough to Head overseas and do a, a rotary exchange program to Canada. When I finished high school and I, you know, I went from this, tiny little country town in western Queensland with 3000 people to this, you know, reasonably large city. I think there were something like 2000 people in the high school and I went to, but the advantage of that was that they offered all of. Courses at school that I'd never thought I'd ever get to study. So one of those was psychology and I kind of fell in love with it. So when I came back from Canada I completed a, a, a year of an arts degree, which kind of steeped me really deeply in sociology and, and those kind of big social impacts. And then went into psychology, which has the complete opposite perspective, which is it's all about the ,you know society as a reflection of the individual. Yeah, so that very quickly got me into, I, like I did a kind of a combination of clinical work early but then was lucky enough to work for an organization that ran programs for institutionalized unemployed clients. So at that stage there were government funded programs that were like six weeks long, really intensive, that were designed to get, you know, people with disabilities or they might have come from generational unemployment or out of the prison system. And, and at that stage, a lot of people who were neurodiverse and just kind of didn't fit in, and I'm putting inverted commas there. And the cool part of that was, It didn't just focus on, you know, the typical cl kind of career coaching and resume building and interview skills. We used to take people to the, you know, to do kind of back of house tours of art galleries and museums and take them to see these kind of cultural experiences that it may have been the first time that they, they'd ever stepped foot into an art gallery, for example. And those things, Deeply transformational for people, you know? So it wasn't just learning skills, it, it was about finding a voice and finding confidence. Some of the programs even involved, you know, taking them absailing and, you know, jumping off a cliff Yeah, so that taught me a lot and, and it really gave me a love of you know, group facilitation and a lot of the, stuff that, you know, organizational psychology kind of covers. So I did quite a lot of work in the, the kind of career management area and then quickly got involved with leadership development. So did a lot of that headed up some pretty big. Businesses or organizations that were, were essentially, you know, HR and talent management consulting firms. Before I I landed a job at a company that was, was then called the Corporate Executive Board, which is what most people knew as. And it was acquired by Gartner a number of years ago. So that's where I am now.
Kate: 8:03
Yeah. And so what, what inspires you to do the work that you do or what drives you to do the work that you do?
Aaron: 8:10
Yeah, it wasn't always apparent to me. But I, you know, I've kind of reflected on it over the years. Whilst I was at university and in the early parts of my career, I was a lead singer for like a, an alternative grunge band.
Kate: 8:23
For our audience, what was the band called? If you're willing to share?
Aaron: 8:26
Oh God. 42 pound fish. I have lots of regrets in the name of that band's, probably one of them. But there's a story behind it, But you, you know, I did that for more than a decade. And I kind of lived this like, you know, Two lives. You know, I, I'd go to work during the week in a suit and be all corporate and professional, and then, you know, on the week nights and the weekends, I'd be in a rock band doing all the things that rock bands do. So I, I'm, I'm kind of introverted by nature. But when I'm on stage I, I, I'm somebody different. So one of the things I've kind of learned is that the work that I do now gives me that stage. you know, I'm too old and dorky to be a lead singer, but you know, I can stand off in front of a room and, and present a chemo and you know, I enjoy that. I enjoy. The interplay with, with the audience. And but probably most importantly, you know, from, from the time I was a teenager, I think I've always wanted to make the world a better place. And for a while I thought I could do that by being a journalist and calling out injustice. But then I really quickly kind of realized that that's really hard to do. And so psychology seemed to be a way of changing people, you know, kind of one person at a time and, and making that difference. But what I've kind of learned over the years and, and where I feel very comfortable today is that I, I have access to, I guess, you know, the powerful executives in the world, and they are responsible for the working lives of literally millions of people around the world. So I, I've always appreciated that work is such a central part of the human condition. And when leaders make good decisions about the wellbeing of those workers and the conditions in which they work. That has a huge footprint. You know, they, they, they go home as better partners. They go home as better parents, better, you know, community members, just better people in a happier place. And so I've just kind of realized that that's the kind of gift I've been given is, is a platform. Where I can influence the decisions that those executives make about their workforces.
Kate: 10:43
Yeah. I love that. and I talk a lot to, to my clients and to my audience about the fact of like, you know, making a difference doesn't have to be working for a charity or being a, you know, a revolutionary or whatever it needs to be. It's, it's what is your particular Strengths, experience, skills, kind of coming together for a need that is, is gonna help a a wider number of people. And yeah. I love that you've kind of identified, you know, your particular way that you can do that through organizations and, and through psychology and research. So that probably is a nice segue into, you know, you talk about your work about, you know, as being about looking at these emerging trends, particularly those that require this rapid response. what are some of the things that you're seeing at the moment that Leaders really need to be thinking about and maybe that individuals might need to be thinking about as well as They think about their careers and their personal professional lives?
Aaron: 11:40
Yeah. I mean, this one's been brewing for some time since the the pandemic started, but I think it's. You know, that we've been through this, you know, existential event, you know, kind of together in a way ironically probably stuck in isolated in our own homes, but it felt like a, almost like a moment of togetherness. And I think the way I often describe it to to my clients is that, you know, We are going through a moment where people are reestablishing and redrawing the relationship that they have with work itself. So what is the purpose of work? Where does it fit in life more generally? And that has a, a whole bunch of really big implications. So if you kind of get to. What's trending at the moment? You'll, you know, we, we've obviously heard a lot about the great resignation and then there was the quiet quitting movement and now people are talking about quiet hiring.
Kate: 12:38
Quiet Hiring? I haven't heard about quiet hiring.
Aaron: 12:42
It's kind of organizations going about making decisions about who they hire and promote and all of those things without necessarily making it public. So yeah, I mean, there's a lot more to it than that, but so there, there's all these kind of, you know, things happening, but One of the more Interesting. ones is the convergence of emerging technology with this kind of once in a generation, or maybe even once in a millennia changed the way that we work. So on one hand, you've got. Emerging technologies like chat, g B T that I mentioned before, that, you know, on the surface look like they could be real threats to employment and, you know, it could wipe out, you know, thousands of jobs, but when you kind of look underneath it again, there's a lot more to it. And, and there might be more upside to it than downside to it because you know, for example, I've been playing with it and I actually asked it to write me a 1200 word article on the future work implications of the technology. And it wrote something that sounded like I wrote it. And you know, like it would be indistinguishable. A lot of commentary that you would see on social media, for example. So, you know, for somebody that kind of writes opinion pieces and is trying to influence big, you know, like what I've found as a writer which is probably why I didn't end up becoming a journalist, to be frank, is that I really find it hard to start. I'm really good at, you know, taking a draft and, you know, adapting it and changing it. But I will procrastinate for days getting started. So it felt like almost immediately it took the biggest obstacle. to me being effective at what I do off the table and gave me a starting point that I can improve from.
Kate: 14:35
Yeah.
Aaron: 14:36
exciting. Yeah. But it's gonna, it is gonna cause, you know, ripples you know, all the way through work and, and how work is done. Then you've got all of these combinations of, of different employment models coming up. So, you know, one of the big, kind of obvious. Topics, deur is the mandating of office attendance. And I've got some pretty, you know, strong opinions on that. But that also opens up all of these possibilities for different ways of working. So, work from anywhere you know, the explosive growth in digital nomad visas being offered around the world, and that combination of people looking for a different relationship with work and then all of the options that are starting to evolve that are also driven by technology. That's a, you know, very fast paced but very exciting place to be kind of playing in.
Kate: 15:30
Yeah, there's some really. Interesting stuff going on, isn't there? I was just actually listening to a podcast, the Other Life podcast the other day. And he was talking about all of the, the chat GPT and, and talking about how the implication that has for, you know, creative thought leader types, if you know, which you are One. And he was saying that in, in many, It's super exciting and it's only gonna make things more interesting because, it gets rid of all the The fluff that we're having to write and do in, you know, social media, and, all those kinds of things, and allows us to focus on the deep and the meaningful and, the, you know, the the real intellectual work which, you know, humans are great at, that the computers can't come up with the original thought
Aaron: 16:12
That's right. and, and probably won't for a, a long time. I mean, the, the technology is incredible. It, it, on the surface it kind of blows your mind, but, you know, it's not really capable of genuine insight yet. and so I think, you know, in a, you know, there's lots of different terms for this, but in a post-truth world, Insight, I think is one of the most valuable commodities that we have. Certainly what, you know, keeps me in a job, and, Gartner is an incredibly successful business because that's what we really trade in is, is insight. So yeah, I think that, you know, like opinions are kind of dime a dozen and, And these technologies will probably make opinions even more common.
Kate: 16:59
Yep.
Aaron: 17:00
Yeah. So it'll be that ability to really distinguish insight and a novel and unique perspective that's gonna, I think going to, to, to make humans stand out in amongst all of that technology.
Kate: 17:14
So I'd love to ask you then in your work, like what do you think is the big insight? Like what's the thing, you know, obviously you're seeing trends and you're seeing things going on, but what's, what's the insight that sits at the end of all of that? I'm sure there's a few,
Aaron: 17:29
That's a, that's a hard question to answer.
Kate: 17:32
I'm putting you on the spot, aren't I?
Aaron: 17:34
Yeah. 42, right? That's, that's the, that'sthe answer. It's to life the universe and everything. Look, my gut keeps coming back to this. And I do think there is a component of intuition in insight. So my intuition tells me that the, the kind of most profound insight coming out of the pandemic is that workers all over the world want to be seen and treated as human Beings. and they are demanding a more, and by the way I should say this, it'll start with a human centric approach to work. But I think it'll go beyond human centric and it'll very quickly become planet centric or ecocentric.
Kate: 18:21
Ecocentric yeah.
Aaron: 18:23
Yeah. Ecocentric. But Yeah. at the moment I think the, the kind of really profound thing that pulls a lot of this stuff together. Is human centricity. So, you know, employees, workers want to be seen and treated as humans. They want to do work that is more human. And often people immediately jump to more meaningful. uh, More purposeful work, but it's not always that, you know, it could be that the most human thing for them is their families. So they want work that just enables them to be there for their families. For others it might be that they're committed to changing the world and working with charities, and so they need employment that allows them to do that. So Yeah. often this. This conversation can get hijacked by knowledge work and meaningful and deep work. But I often say to people, you can't, you can't binge on super meaningful, engaging work all the time. Every now and again, you need to like put your brain in a bucket and do some admin. So it is about getting that right balance But yeah, I think, you know, I think that's gonna be increasingly important. It's this idea. What is the role of work in life and how do we create work that is more aligned to us as humans? And that has implications for the workplace, the tools that we use, the technologies that are emerging. And ironically, you know, it's that place where we will find purpose and meaning in work as the technology increasingly becomes sophisticated enough that it does take over a lot of what, you know, human Beings have previously done for work. So there's, it's the kind of unifying insight for me that, that I often come back to.
Kate: 20:08
Yeah. I love that And, I, I was listening to another podcast that, you were on, which I'll, I'll put in the show notes as well today. and in that podcast, you and the the host talked quite a bit about employee experience, but something that I've often thought about is this idea. of work life, experience and that you know, as as employers, you know, You do, employers do think about, employee experience as this is my employee and I'm giving them an experience when in my employ. Whereas I really like to think about and you know, champion the, idea of work life experience and the fact that organizations need to, be thinking about that whole picture for their employees. Because if you, remove the element of life and self from the experience of employment, then, you know you are doing exactly the same thing that you did when you talked about human resources and you know, thinking about employees as, you know, just an, an asset that that you deploy. And for me it's really that integration with the life that changes the conversation. and I don't think, there's a lot of organizations that are really doing that well yet.
Aaron: 21:19
Yeah. And I think it's partly cuz they don't quite get it. You know, we just, we have so many. We have so much historical baggage about, you know, humans as means to production. And, and really that's the role that workers have had and we tend to manage them like they're pieces of stationary in our organizations yeah. So you know what, what I think is interesting is that that time is over. You know, it, it ended with the pandemic when work and life were forced together So, you know, we danced around with the, the notion of work-life balance for a long time, but of course, nobody could balance work and life. You know, the only way you could balance work and life was if you outsourced everything domestically.
Kate: 22:04
Oh, the dream.
Aaron: 22:06
Yeah. But you, you know what I mean? Like, if you were a ceo, you outsourced that either to paid help or, or to your. Wife, you know, partner. And you know, obviously I'm pointing to some of the, you know data around who are CEOs still in this world and that lack of diversity. Yeah. So the only way you could like have a fully successful career was compromise and. To, to, to either pay for the help or or compromise, you know, some big aspects of your life. People just aren't prepared to do that anymore. And, and I think, you know, what's, what's interesting about the role of emerging technologies is that maybe we won't have to. and there are organizations that are, you know, by kind of rethinking everything from, well what does the working week look like to how is work structured to how do we deploy our human assets around the organization? Where we're getting really close to a point. If, if an organization is purposeful, it can offer. Multiple experiences that allow people to get that integration right for them. And that's a, you know, that's a pretty exciting time to be in. But the organizations that are blind to that or push back and try to go back to what was and gain all of that control back you know, the, my view is that they're, The Blockbusters of the world, trying to convince people, you know, going to a physical store and selecting a video. As much as that might have been a fun experience to have with your family on a Saturday night if I can, you know, binge Game of Thrones in a single setting, sitting in the comfort of my own home and without having to lift a finger. Like it's just, it's just. It's No competition. And we know what happened to organizations that drag their feet on that. But there's a you know, I've, I've spoken a bit about technology. the probably the main point when, when I see organizations or leaders dragging their feet on this and just not quite getting that, you know, we're, we're in the middle of a new revolution and it is a human-centric one. is that they're ignoring their responsibility to drive their organization's digitalization strategy. So when we, you know, we survey boards of directors and CEOs all over the world every year, and for the last 10 years, the number one priority, and it still remains that in 2023, is digital transformation. So companies are trying as hard as they can to decouple their businesses from physical limitations. We just did that with our workforce in the biggest experiment, you know, ever conducted. And, and so a lot of organizations kind of progressed their digital transformation by, you know, 2, 3, 5, up to 10 years. And now those same organizations are going but hey, you know, you better come back to the office.
Kate: 25:09
Yeah, run away
Aaron: 25:10
And so it's, it's ironic to me that, you know, on my more cynical days, it's, it's almost like they're ignoring the, the core responsibility of their role as a leader of a business.
Kate: 25:20
Yeah. So if, if that's the case with leaders, what's the missing piece? What's it gonna take to shift leaders into what's required for what's coming or what's already here?
Aaron: 25:34
Yeah, this is something that I've I've spent, you know, realistically the last three years thinking about really deeply. My first approach as would be kind of, you know, in line with being an analyst. Is that we tried to do it by presenting the data and the business cases. You know, so there is just so much data that shows that you know, when you give employees more autonomy over where they work, when they work, how they work, who they work with, the models that they work, it all translates into wonderful stuff. There's some downsides, but the downsides are largely manageable and, and I would attribute them to the teething stages. changing the way that we work so we can work through those things. What I. learned, I'd love to say quickly, but in all honesty, it took me the best part of 18 months was that the business case and the data wasn't working. So it was just clear cut. It was compelling. and I'd present it to boards, I'd present it to CEOs or teens of leaders, and then they'd go, Yeah. Yeah. that's great, Aaron. But how do we get them to come back to the office like you know, how do we get them to You know, like, and I'm, and I'm, that's almost verbatim, like that's, that's how it would, would occur. And I, and for a while I was stumped. So here's the conclusion that I came to, is that there's kind of four things going on. The first one is that the jobs that employees do is very different to the work or the jobs that executives do on average. You know, so obviously there's similarities, but generally speaking, You know, senior executives don't come into the office and sit in front of a computer and punch out code for eight hours a day. You know, they're not picking up the phone or jumping on a Zoom call to sell things to their customers. The role of senior executives is largely about influencing people and making decisions. Pulling all of the kind of stuff together to get stuff over the line and, and, and momentum behind it. So the, the jobs are different and so I think a lot of leaders think that their employees' jobs are like that as well. And so, it makes absolute sense that a lot of leaders would be sitting there going, I'm stuck in my home office. I, it's really hard for me to get people to do stuff
Kate: 28:07
Hmm.
Aaron: 28:08
it might be inconvenient to meet with people when you don't quite know where they are or, you know, are they, which application are they using? So that's the first thing I'd say is that there's just this difference in the work that they do. And, you know, human Beings are fallible. You know, we often see the world through our own eyes. The, the second one is a bit more touchy and it's privilege. So the reality is that, you know, the average executive has an office within the office. So if they need privacy, if they need quiet, they can close the door to their office. They don't have to be sitting in a fish. All day. Being surrounded not just by noise, but by interruptions, by the general hum. And anyone who's an introvert knows that that's draining. There's a reason why people are exhausted when they get home from work. And we do know that there's some evidence that suggests that many executives are extroverted. So getting out on the floor and being a part of that buzz is energizing for them. But more importantly, they've probably got a parking spot in the building. They don't have to get on a public transport for two hours every day. And they probably live closer to the office, you know, cuz they're more likely to own property more central to the C B D. then it gets even worse. Like they've probably got babysitters and nannies, they've probably got house cleaners. They've probably got people that look after their yard. So to my point earlier, you know, they're able to outsource a lot of the work that people have to do when they get home. And that was one of the problems in, you know, leading up to the pandemic work had become grinding and all encompassing. So people were working longer than we probably have since, you know, the industrial revolution when we had no protections, like child exploitation or, or worker exploitation. And because of the encroachment of technology people were on all the time, you couldn't escape work. And it was particularly felt in the APAC region you know, where, where here we're stuck between two time zones. So if you work for a global company, you know, there were people that were literally on point, you know, for a 24 hour period where the communications, and we know it all kind of increased because of the digitalization that occurred. So we're starting to, to work that out. But the point I'd make is that, you know, leaders live a life of privilege, which is very, very different from the circumstances of the people that they employ. So part of what we need to do is make sure that they are aware of that and empathic to it. So they need to walk in the shoes of their employees, at least metaphorically to be able to kind of experience that.
Kate: 31:14
And what are you seeing is actually working in that sense of getting leaders to do that? I mean, back in my days I used to work as a, a human-centered designer. And empathy is one of, you know, the key, key parts of human-centered design. And it was one of the things we struggled with the most is when we were to present. You know, something to a leadership team based on same kind of thing as you, a bunch of data in this case, more probably qualitative data than anything, but, and the leaders just, they often wouldn't get it because, and, but what I saw time and time again, that was that they were too f far up the tree to take the time to come down to the levels of the customer or whoever it was So what's actually working with this?
Aaron: 31:56
Well I think as a starting point, I stopped telling and I just started asking.
Kate: 32:02
Hmm.
Aaron: 32:03
when I was talking through these things, instead of saying, and here's what the data would say, and you know, this is not the life of your employees, I would just say hands up, who's got a nanny? You know, hands up if you've got a parking spot in the garage. you know, hands up if you live within 10 kilometers of the C, b, D, and as the hands kind of go up, they, you know, they start to realize. So I, I don't think they're oblivious to the differences. It's just not, to your point, with human-centered design to walk in the steps of your customer, you, you have to walk in the steps of your customer, you know? And this is why I'm a very big fan of the big shift that we need to do is, Recognize that we need to treat work like a product and employees, like customers because there aren't too many executives that I know that aren't absolutely committed to customer centricity
Kate: 33:01
Hmm.
Aaron: 33:02
are more than willing to invest in that. In fact, it's very high on the, on the priorities of organizations. And so if we're able to get them to see employees as customers rather than inputs to production. Then that, then it opens the space for that empathy because then they're gonna be going, oh, I don't need to live like this employee. I just need to understand their customer journey. But it starts with asking questions. So like asking, not telling is, you know, the most important part of that starting point, but I really love the idea cuz you've just planted this seed for me, which is incorporating customer journey mapping and some. Human-centric design into that equation that could work very, very well.
Kate: 33:48
absolutely.
Aaron: 33:49
through the life of a, of an employee that lives in the outskirts of a major capital city and see what they have to go through as they drop the kids off at daycare and then struggle to get into the office where nobody's at anyway, to sit in front of a computer to do stuff that they could have done at home, and you just get a, like, you just get a very clear picture right away that no one would buy that product. Like it's not a product that anyone's gonna be putting money on the table. And, And, you know, there's some talk of recession coming It probably is, but it's gonna be different to other recessions and it may not hit Australia. So we may, we may escape a recession but there will be some belt tightening and the current kind of imbalance of power that has shifted to employees in this incredibly tight talent market. That might shift a little bit but it's not gonna shift so far that we won't continue to have less people to do the work that needs to be done. So organizations just aren't in the position to be selling a crappy product, is my view.
Kate: 34:58
Yeah. Yeah. So that's kind of the organizational side, the leadership side. I'd love to talk about for a moment, like if we flip that around and we look at the The side of the employee, the human doing the work. Cuz You know, often there's things that, happen at an organizational level, but then there's things that can happen at the individual level too. And if we go back to that, that idea of re-imagining work. And the fact that this time has opened up a lot of possibility and opportunity, what do you see as the role of the individual? and I I know, this is not so much where your work sits, but I'm sure you've got some kind of ideas and insights on it from, from the work that you.
Aaron: 35:38
Yeah. And you know, I spent more than a decade as a, as a career coach. So, you know, this is, this is pretty kind of central to, to the way that I used to think about these things. But there's a, there's an old an old concept, when I say old meaning it's been around for a while and it's called job crafting. And so there's this beautiful body of research that shows that if you can craft a job, not just in terms of the tasks, aligning with your strengths and interests, but also aligning it from a, a values perspective and like a cognitive you know, almost intellectual perspective. So there's, there's a lot that we can do to craft our jobs and when we do craft it has all sorts of payoffs in terms of engagement and, and you know, perceived job satisfaction and all of these kind of, these things. And and so this is kind of my point, you know, to a degree, what happened when everyone, and I should say when knowledge workers largely went home to work during the pandemic, is that they started job craft. they started making the job and the tasks that they have to do work around their schedule. You know, they were able to put their, yeah, whether it was putting a roast on or getting the washing done or going for a quick workout. So what I think happened was, and, and a and a lot of what I think led to these beautiful increases in productivity and performance that we saw is that people probably had one of the very first opportunity to genuinely craft their jobs
Kate: 37:17
Mm.
Aaron: 37:19
Now.
Kate: 37:19
Yeah.
Aaron: 37:21
That will continue because hybrid work is not going away. So even if at the worst case scenario you've got a boss that says you've gotta be in here four days a week. you've got one day that you can spend crafting your job to a degree, I'm gonna put aside privacy invasion and employee monitoring for a second. Cuz that's a, you know, that's a whole other kind of track of thought. But you know, if you are not being. Monitored like a police state. you're gonna have, most employees will have the capacity to craft their job, at least in terms of when they do things. Then the next step, and this is what I think, so my prediction as part of this kind of rapid response work that I do with Gartner is that the next big thing this year is gonna be a really strong focus from employees on career. So if you think about they've spent the last three years putting their careers on hold,
Kate: 38:19
Hmm.
Aaron: 38:19
everyone is in like a holding pattern. You know, they're kind of treading water. Just the amount of times I heard people say, I remember this. You know, like goals are a really big thing in our organization as they are in many organizations. And you know, that whole goal setting process that we go through every year, right? Half the people I spoke to were like goals, like my goal is to get to Christmas, like that's it If I can get there and I'm still standing, like that's all I need from, my job this year, that time I think is over. We, you know, we've got, we're gonna have a hangover of wellbeing issues and burnout issues, and there's a tale to the, you know, psychosocial impact of pandemics, which we're yet to experience. But generally speaking, a lot of people are gonna be right. That's enough holding for me. I want to get focused on my career, but this year I don't think it's gonna be about, well, not for everyone. For some people it will, but largely it won't be about career progression it's not gonna be climbing the ladder and ambitiously fighting for that promotion. It's gonna be what can I, how can I match my job better to my circumstances and my values and my passions? And also can I explore other things? You know, like there's a big world of opportunity out there. So, you know, can I take on a gig outside of work Would my employer let me do that could I spend a day or two volunteering? And move to a part-time ish model. Can I be involved in things that allow me to do work that might go outside of my function or my role? So it's gonna be this kind of broadening of perspective on career and I, and I think that's gonna be phase two of job crafting.
Kate: 40:13
Yeah. Yep. I love
Aaron: 40:15
And then eventually we'll get to companies selling. Job products and work products and consumers buying them like you would a package of stuff. So it's like, yeah, I'll have a little bit of that and a bit of that, and if I can work with a team that does X, Y, and Z, that's the package that I'm looking for. So I think it'll be kind of like a phased approach, but it central to it is this notion of job crafting, whether that's purposeful or not. I think that's what people are going to be engaged.
Kate: 40:48
Yeah, and I love that you talk about job crafting in the sense of like, it's job crafting, but it's actually for the purpose of, of my entire work life, which, you know, my job is one part of and And something that you said then, which, which kind of. made me reflect on something that I'm hearing from a lot of my clients off the back of the pandemic is that when they didn't have a workplace to go to anymore, their identity, That was wrapped up in their job, also in in some cases kind of crumbled a little bit, and they realized that like the, the aspects that were missing from their lives, making them not fully kind of. well-rounded humans because there's so much of who they were, was focused on their job And I think So, many people now are going, I need space to do other things because I'm not just my work.
Aaron: 41:35
Yeah, I mean, I'm not gonna comment on, you know, big social systems too
Kate: 41:41
Mm-hmm.
Aaron: 41:41
but how did we get to the point? Where we had all collectively convinced ourselves that work was the center of our life and that it was totally acceptable to sacrifice relationships, health, fitness, wellbeing, children, pets for the job, for doing a few extra hours that you don't get paid for anyway, so yeah, the, the pandemic was this kind of collective shake. and the system is, is correcting. So it's kind of interesting in, in, in our research at Gartner, we specifically called out that the old employee value proposition, as you very well articulated earlier, was focused on how do we improve the experience that people have at work. Whereas the new EVP is about how do we improve the entire life experience of our employees? So it is going to be those com and, and I find this fascinating. I'm, I'm a, you know, huge student of history and, and history always kind of repeats. And so I, I often, you know, as I probably mentioned Blockbuster earlier, go back to a Kodak moment, you know, and that's kind of the moment where a lot of people. Kind of uses the example of not reading the tea leaves, not seeing the change that's coming, and then being blindsided by it. So what's interesting is that it was the technology companies, the ones that are all the big household names for us today, that were the disruptors back then when they shifted to digitalized businesses, you know, so they got rid of their physical stores and they had, you know, like your big e-commerce models. Everything that came with that. What's fascinating to me is that those companies, not all of them, but many of them other ones today that are sitting there going, no, we're gonna force you to come back to work and you're not allowed to talk about your politics and you've gotta keep your opinions to yourself and you're gonna adhere to this culture that we expect you to hit, adhere to, and you're gonna do it on my terms. They're, they're the companies that don't realize that profound change. So the disruptors of today, and I find this fascinating, they're going to be like the companies that sell insurance or ,you know, like they're not doing anything sexy. They don't have 24 hour cafeterias and they're not producing the next like virtual reality hologram world
Kate: 44:16
Yeah, I've seen some accounting firms doing really great work in this space.
Aaron: 44:21
Exactly. And what they're gonna be doing is saying, well, we are gonna help you have as much flexibility and autonomy as we can. We're gonna treat you with heart, we're gonna treat you with respect, and we're gonna create an environment that allows you to be the best functioning human being you can be And they're about to become the talent magnet. So it's almost ironic that the disruptors are about to be disrupted, but it's not gonna be by technology. It's gonna be by this profound shift in in people's relationship to work and the reestablishing of that
Kate: 44:54
Hmm. Oof. I love that. That's probably a really nice place to wrap that part of the discussion up. I'm aware that we don't have too much time left, but I did wanna ask you before we do wrap up if you are thinking about work and life and business, what does it mean to you to be a leading being?
Aaron: 45:12
It means kind of everything that I've shared, you know, I turned 50 last year. So that's kind of one of those kind of profound, I guess, you know, milestones in life. So the point of sharing that is to say I'm in a different place to what I used to be so what I want from work is actually quite different to what it used to be. So I used to be all about traveling around the world and having an adventures and being in front of important people and you know, having that stage where I could still pretend to half be a, some sort of rock star. Now it's like, it's, it's quiet like I've been spending. the last few months, like painting the house and building decks and, you know, doing things with the kids. That's where my life's at now. So, you know, the job that I want is one that gives me as much autonomy and flexibility as I can to have a To have a connection with different parts of my life, you know, so, and, and that's kind of, I think the point of it all, of sharing all of these points is that our old models of looking at the workforce, were about seeing everybody the same. and just creating this thing and forcing everyone to do it. Whereas I think the future is about a hyper personalized experience where we understand people and where they're at, and that that changes with circumstance and context. And so for me, it's really important that as many leaders as possible understand that shift and understand the change that's coming. And the faster we get there, the better the planet will be. You know, it's just, it's gonna be better for everybody, our children, our communities, our pets. I mean, you'd have to be a pretty nasty boss to force people to you know, Go back to the office and leave their covid puppy at home stressing out. You know what I mean? Like it's, it that's human right? Understanding that that's what's important now. And we can get the best of both worlds. We can grow we can continue to have very successful and productive businesses. And in fact, the thing that I'm most excited about, is that as we reestablish what it means to be productive in a human-centric world, we're gonna start listening to the science that we've already developed about what helps people flourish and what helps them do their best work. And one thing I know for sure is that the modern office, Does not facilitate people doing their best work. ,you know, there's a reason why the TV show the Office exists as a parody. Not a parody, a satire I should say. It's cuz we all kind of realize the soul crushing nature of these kind of boring everything is the same corporate environments. That's just not what people are about.
Kate: 48:08
Yeah. I love it. Thank you so much for sharing your insights with us. It, it's been really fascinating and you've started me thinking about all these different things relating to like how we're crafting our jobs and, you know, the impact of where we've come from on how we do that. As we move forward, as individuals, as well as leaders. So much for me to ponder. Before we wrap up how can people find you, get in touch with you find your work?
Aaron: 48:35
Yeah I mean, you can follow me on Twitter. It's Aaron McEwen. I'm not the most prolific Twitterer in the world or LinkedIn's probably the best place to to connect with me and You know, from a Gartner perspective, we publish a lot of these ideas publicly outside of our paywalls. So just go to gartner.com and you'll get access to a whole range of perspectives and experts that are looking at all different parts of this. So it's a well worth visit.
Kate: 49:05
Wonderful. I can't wait to dive in. Well, thank you so much and enjoy the rest of your day.
Aaron: 49:10
No worries. It's my pleasure. All the best.